Posts by Doug Mason

37

Daniel chapter 9

by Doug Mason in

i have scanned daniel chapter 9 as it is rendered in english by the hebrew tanakh (masoretic text - mt) and by the greek septuagint (lxx).. http://www.jwstudies.com/daniel_9_in_mt_and_in_lxx.pdf.

read verses 24 to 27 carefully.. doug.

Doug Mason

ablebodiedman,

If you really think those verses show that Daniel 9 refers to Jesus of Nazareth, then do so.

Doug

37

Daniel chapter 9

by Doug Mason in

i have scanned daniel chapter 9 as it is rendered in english by the hebrew tanakh (masoretic text - mt) and by the greek septuagint (lxx).. http://www.jwstudies.com/daniel_9_in_mt_and_in_lxx.pdf.

read verses 24 to 27 carefully.. doug.

I see the Hebrew Scriptures as sophisticated religio-political that needs to be understood through the prism of the neo-Babylonian experience. The elite of Judea-Benjamin had been deported, the house of David ended so the powerful elite blamed the "others" for their parlous state: they had not been listening to the voices of the religious leaders (prophets) therefore God had punished them.

Always remember that writing as a means of communication was limited to a tiny percentage of the population and was distrusted by others, such as the powerful People of the Land. Thus we only are able to read the biased opinions of a small part of one side, those who wanted to see Jerusalem return to power, and this time without problems from the royal household.

So they wrote and rewrote their history: I presume you are aware of the hypothesis known as the Deuteronomic History, and the series of history books that ensued, starting with Deuteronomy. Another example is the way they incorporated their writings into the book (scroll) of Isaiah (chapter 40 on).

The later immense influence came during the Persian period, with the fanatical Ezra presumably being the driving force, where we see the merging of writings to create the Pentateuch into the form that we now have.

I see the NT writings as a Greco-diaspora Jewish document written by Paul and his adherents. Matthew, James and the Apocalypse being likely non-Pauline that come immediately to mind. Many see Christianity as a Pauline invention in opposition to the very legalistic position presented by the Jesus community, as promoted by the Jerusalem Church in opposition to Paul (of the diaspora).

I do not believe that it is possible for anyone to provide objective evidence that the Bible is the "Word of God", nor indeed to show that there is just one version of the Bible.

Doug

37

Daniel chapter 9

by Doug Mason in

i have scanned daniel chapter 9 as it is rendered in english by the hebrew tanakh (masoretic text - mt) and by the greek septuagint (lxx).. http://www.jwstudies.com/daniel_9_in_mt_and_in_lxx.pdf.

read verses 24 to 27 carefully.. doug.

Doug Mason

Oubliette,

Yes, I did have a point and the ensuing discussion has elicited it.

It is this: read Daniel 9 without the prejudice that it has any relevance to Jesus.

Dooug

37

Daniel chapter 9

by Doug Mason in

i have scanned daniel chapter 9 as it is rendered in english by the hebrew tanakh (masoretic text - mt) and by the greek septuagint (lxx).. http://www.jwstudies.com/daniel_9_in_mt_and_in_lxx.pdf.

read verses 24 to 27 carefully.. doug.

Doug Mason

Vidqun,

I respect your right to you having your views, and that you should express them. There is any amount of views on the www regarding Daniel, and chapter 9 in particular. Each of us here needs to weigh up all the evidences and make up their own mind. It is thus very important for each of us, myself especially, to read views that oppose mine. I despise the Governing Body's insistence on lock-step uniformity.

I put out my thoughts, which has shifted from thinking that Daniel was written in the 6th century BCE, and I now believe it was compiled in the 2nd century BCE. It is important to remain true to oneself and to be brave enough to change one's stance, regardless of how public it had been.

Daniel was not a prophet. The idea of a prophet is not that of a predictor but of one who speaks to God's people on his behalf. Daniel never did that. He only worked in the Babylonian court. He was obsessed with ritual purity and with the devastated state of the sanctuary at Jerusalem. Chapter 9 is totally and absolutely focused on that condition.

The letter referred to as coming from Jeremiah is doubtless that mention at Jeremiah 29.

It is possible that the 2nd century writers took the name from Ezekiel, although they distorted it, whether accidentally or deliberately. who can tell?

The fables (lion's den, praying to idols, etc) were myths used to strengthen the resolve of the 2nd century Jews.

The madness of Nebuchadnezzar was a distortion of the experience of Nabonidus; you will be aware of Nabonidus' history, especially with respect to his mother Adad-Guppi and her relevance to the changes in Babylonian worship she wished to introduce.

Doug

37

Daniel chapter 9

by Doug Mason in

i have scanned daniel chapter 9 as it is rendered in english by the hebrew tanakh (masoretic text - mt) and by the greek septuagint (lxx).. http://www.jwstudies.com/daniel_9_in_mt_and_in_lxx.pdf.

read verses 24 to 27 carefully.. doug.

Doug Mason

Sarah,

Firstly, I say that Daniel 9 has no relevance to Jesus.

Some say that one person being referred to is Onias (search the www). But as you noted, there are two people being referred to in these verses. I do not offhand recall the name of the other High Priest who is suggested as the other person.

Remember that "Anointing" referred to the smearing of oil on the High Priest. The Hebrew word is Mesach (Messiah) the Greek is Christ. So the priest was the Anointed One (namely, the "Messiah" or the "Christ"). - Many will come in my name (authority) and say I am the Christ (the Anointed - think of the WTS's GB).

Before I proceed, let me give you another curly one to consider: why did Jesus speak of the "Son of Man" who is coming as being a person who was different from him? ("When the Son of Man comes he will ...". It is as if Jesus was intending to set himself up as "The King of the (imminent) Kingdom" that this Son of Man was about to instigate. The Romans said that he intended to make himself king of the Jews, (hence his triumphal ride into Jerusalem) which in the Romans' eyes was the height of insurrection.

I apologise for making it difficult for you, so here are the relevant verses that I put up:

Doug

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Daniel 9:24-27

Tanach, The Stone Edition (MT):

Daniel 9:24 Seventy septets have been decreed upon your people and upon your holy city to terminate transgression, to end sin, to wipe away iniquity, to bring everlasting righteousness, to confirm the visions and prophets, and to anoint the Holy of Holies. 25 Know and comprehend: From the emergence of the word to return and to build Jerusalem until the anointment of the prince will be seven septets, and for sixty-two septets it will be rebuilt, street and moat, but in troubled times. 26 Then, after the sixty-two septets, the anointed one will be cut off and will exist no longer; the people of the prince will come will destroy the city and the Sanctuary; but his end will be [to be swept away as] in a flood. Then, until the end of the war, desolation is decreed. 27 He will forge a strong covenant with the great ones for one septet; but for half of that septet he will abolish sacrifice and meal-offering, and the mute abominations will be upon soaring heights, until extermination as decreed will pour down upon the mute [abomination].

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New JPS Translations (MT):

24”Seventy weeks have been decreed for your people and your holy city until the measure of transgression is filled and that of sin complete, until iniquity is expiated, and eternal righteousness ushered in; and prophetic vision ratified, and the Holy of Holies anointed. 25You must know and understand: From the issuance of the word to restore and rebuild Jerusalem until the [time of the] anointed leader is seven weeks; and for sixty-two weeks it will be rebuilt, square and moat, but in a time of distress. 26And alter those sixty-two weeks, the anointed one will disappear and vanish. The army of a leader who is to come will destroy the city and the sanctuary, but its end will come through a flood. Desolation is decreed until the end of war. 27During one week he will make a firm covenant with many. For half a week he will put a stop to the sacrifice and the meal offering. At the corner [of the altar] will be an appalling abomination until the decreed destruction will be poured down upon the appalling thing.”

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The Septuagint (Brenton):

24 Seventy weeks have been determined upon thy people and upon the holy city for sin to be ended, and to seal up transgressions, and to blot out the iniquities, and to make atonement for iniquities, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal the vision and the prophet, and to anoint the Most Holy.

25 And thou shalt know and understand, that from the going forth of the command for the answer and for the building of Jerusalem until Christ the prince there shall be seven weeks, and sixty-two weeks: and then the time shall return, and the street shall be built, and the wall, and the times shall be exhausted.

26 And after the sixty-two weeks, the anointed one shall be destroyed, and there is no judgment in him: and he shall destroy the city and the sanctuary with the prince that is coming: they shall be cut off with a flood, and to the end of the war which is rapidly completed he shall appoint the city to desolations. 27 And one week shall establish the covenant with many: and in the midst of the week my sacrifice and drink-offering shall be taken away: and on the temple shall be the abomination of desolations ; and at the end of the time an end shall be put to the desolation.

37

Daniel chapter 9

by Doug Mason in

i have scanned daniel chapter 9 as it is rendered in english by the hebrew tanakh (masoretic text - mt) and by the greek septuagint (lxx).. http://www.jwstudies.com/daniel_9_in_mt_and_in_lxx.pdf.

read verses 24 to 27 carefully.. doug.

Doug Mason

HowTheBibleWasCreated,

Exactly correct. The book of Daniel relates to the state of the Temple at Jerusalem, which was under attack and profanity during the 2nd century BCE. The stories were written to strengthen the people at that time, using stories that had meaning to the Jews but slipped by their captors as meaningless fables.

Yes, what is a heptad? Who was the Anointed One who came after 7 heptads? Are the 7 heptads and 62 heptads continuous? All these questions - and more - cast serious doubt on these verses in Daniel having any reference to Jesus.

BTW. As an aside, no one knows how long Jesus' ministry lasted. A straight reading of the Synoptic Gospels indicates it lasted for several months, maybe up to a year, and was confined to an area around Galillee. Only John's Gospel has Jesus going to Jerusalem 3 times. Not that we know who wrote any of the Gospels, just that not one of the NT writers was personally acquainted with Jesus.

Doug

37

Daniel chapter 9

by Doug Mason in

i have scanned daniel chapter 9 as it is rendered in english by the hebrew tanakh (masoretic text - mt) and by the greek septuagint (lxx).. http://www.jwstudies.com/daniel_9_in_mt_and_in_lxx.pdf.

read verses 24 to 27 carefully.. doug.

Doug Mason

Amelia and Vidqun,

Thanks for providing these renderings.

Daniel 8 and 9 are absolutely and solely focused on the ruined state of the temple at Jerusalem, so that is the only context of the "70 X 7" message from the messenger to Daniel. That is all that concerned him, and that is all that verses 24ff relate to.

Note carefully the breakdown of the 7 heptads and the 62 heptads.

Doug

37

Daniel chapter 9

by Doug Mason in

i have scanned daniel chapter 9 as it is rendered in english by the hebrew tanakh (masoretic text - mt) and by the greek septuagint (lxx).. http://www.jwstudies.com/daniel_9_in_mt_and_in_lxx.pdf.

read verses 24 to 27 carefully.. doug.

Doug Mason

Villagegirl,

Daniel 9 has nothing to do with Jesus Christ. This idea was invented some 200 years after his life and death. That is one reason there is no reference in the NT to the "times" mentioned in Daniel 9.

When the word "Christ" is used, it simply means "anointed one", which is drawn from the anointing by oil of the priestly candidate. Unfortunately, Paul used the term almost as a personal name, but "Jesus Christ" literally means "Jesus/Yeshua/Joshua the anointed".

Doug

37

Daniel chapter 9

by Doug Mason in

i have scanned daniel chapter 9 as it is rendered in english by the hebrew tanakh (masoretic text - mt) and by the greek septuagint (lxx).. http://www.jwstudies.com/daniel_9_in_mt_and_in_lxx.pdf.

read verses 24 to 27 carefully.. doug.

Doug Mason

I have scanned Daniel chapter 9 as it is rendered in English by the Hebrew Tanakh (Masoretic Text - MT) and by the Greek Septuagint (LXX).

http://www.jwstudies.com/Daniel_9_in_MT_and_in_LXX.pdf

Read verses 24 to 27 carefully.

Doug

49

The List, by "Prominent Bethelite"

by morloc in

i occasionally pop through here to catch up on the latest, but this time i'm going to pop my own post on here.. some of you internet oldsters may even remember this.

my first experience on the internet regarding discussions about jehovah's witnesses and the watchtower took place on a now-obscure usenet group, before i eventually stumbled across hourglass2.. during those days, there was a poster who went by the name "prominent bethelite," an otherwise anonymous individual whom i remember most for an extensive, exhaustive compilation of date-oriented remarks, predictions, and expectations by the watchtower organization down through the decades of its history.. it became known as "the list" and it's definitely lengthy... but a fascination look at the abundance of errant statements made through the watchtower's history.. if you're curious, it's been available for a long time on hourglass2's site, and can be seen using the link provided below.. the list, compiled by prominent bethelite (1999).

that's about it for this stop through here.

Doug Mason

Scott

Word file: http://www.jwstudies.com/The_List_from_Hourglass.docx

PDF: http://www.jwstudies.com/The_List_from_Hourglass.pdf

Doug